Jan 24, 2007

Edifying discussion wanted

"All that God does is to let them alone and allow them to go their own way without interference. It is their nature to be evil, and God simply has foreordained to leave that nature unchanged. The picture often painted by opponents of Calvinism, of a cruel God refusing to save all who want to be saved, is a gross caricature. God saves all who want to be saved, but no one whose nature has not been changed wants to be saved."

"God called out of his grace Abraham, when Abraham was living in paganism. Why did God elect Abraham and not anyone else? Is God unfair? God elected a tiny nation called Israel, over other nations, God took care of them like a father to a son and other nations did not have that blessing, Is God unfair? Moses had killed an Egyptian and hid him in the sand, he was a murderer. God gave grace to Moses and not to Pharaoh, is God unfair? Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of God, killing the Christians but God instantly gave mercy and grace to him while Pilate was not elected. Is God unfair? Paul was a violent persecutor of the church and so were Pilate and Caiaphas who was against Christianity. Therefore is God obliged to give the same mercy and grace that he gave to Paul? Jacob and Esau before they were born, before they could do anything good or bad God elected Jacob, so God's election will stand. In later years Jacob deceived his brother and father, yet God's election and his word did not change. Why did God elect you over your friends? Did you deserve salvation? Are you better than others?"

My question is, do you agree or disagree with these quotes? Remember folks, be kind, gentle and don't be afraid to share your opinion. I won't bite. I'm not posting these things to start arguments. I am posting them for the sake of our edification & sanctification.

References on quotes:
1) Professor Floyd Hamilton 2) Steve Weaver


Stan said...

Okay, I'll kindly and gently, without fear, agree with the statements. Of course, that doesn't help, does it? =)

ann_in_grace said...

How can one disagree with the only true Gospel?
I was saved last June, and it took me about one month, just one, to become Reformed. There is no other concise and true Gospel. It is all about Him.

Julianne said...

1) I have never thought God to be cruel. I disagree for the most part, as how can we say God does not interfere when He sent His Son that all might be saved if they will believe in Him? Sure it is in our nature to be evil, but as Romans 1 says...We all know there is a God, for HE makes it evident to us...so YES, He does interfere and makes Himself known to us and that is why we are without excuse. We all can look at creation and feel the void of something missing in our lives and know there is a Creator. Do we choose to accept the sacrifice made on our behalf or do we choose to follow our own ideas? If we reject the God we know is there then God gives us over to a reprobate mind...it does not say we start out with that reprobate mind. It is after WE exchange the truth of God for a lie! This is why God gives us over it says in Romans.

2. I disagree thus far. I cannot find where the Bible says Abraham was living as a pagan. I also do not see where it says God elected Abraham and nobody else. It seems to me that Job was from that era and it seems God found him to be righteous too. This guy seems to be adding a lot to Bible history that I have never read that I can recall. Does he reference the Scriptures that prove those points? Also, we know that Paul was a persecutor of the church and yet was transformed, we all accept that grace can do this. Do we know for a fact that Pilate and Caiphas died without a transformation of grace in their lives? I did not know we knew that for a fact. Again, where did he get this privileged info or is this in the Bible somewhere that I keep missing?

Do I believe God can do whatever He wants and it is righteous and fair? YOU BET! So "if" the comments were true from these two men, that would not rock my world or change my view of God as perfectly Holy and Just. I stand in awe of Him because of who He is no matter if he elected me to salvation and others to hell or not. All His ways are perfect.

I just cannot agree with these two comments because I cannot see they are based wholly on truth, but part truth and a lot of conjecture and implications that may or may not be true. I have to still see where they get the basis for these statements, you know maybe they have proof I have not considered, so I cannot say these things are false.

Anyhow, I still need to answer on your other post to Stan's comments that I do not completely agree with, but finding the free time right now has been scarce. Last night I stopped by, but was just too fatigued.

Blessings to you dear sis, Julianne

Nate said...

I think it is great to see the desire that you have for God. Just about everytime I come to your page I am surprised at how much reading you do from authors commenting on religion. But to get the true answers you seek, only study of the bible will get you there. That is not easy and takes great commitment. But praying and asking God to also supply those answers through study, is the best bet you have.

Samantha said...

I'm not sure what to say to this, Nate. I guess I'm sort of offended at first glance, that you seem to be insinuating that I base my theology on man rather than the bible.

BUT, on the other hand, I know God rebukes us in various ways. Should I consider it a rebuke? I don't know. I will tell you that I read far more scripture than anything else. But to say I am not somehow influenced by teachers of the Word would be a lie.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Be sure to know that I hold scripture as the highest authority. :D

Samantha said...


I'm wondering myself where they got the idea that Abraham was a pagan.

Anyway, as to your comment about the first quote, I see in scripture that man is indeed totally depraved from birth.

I can provide scripture. I'm just sick right now and don't have enough time to focus. :D

Love ya

Nate said...

No not a rebuke at all. Actually a compliment and a suggestion. Commentaries are a good thing to read to stir thought. But once the thought is stirring around, settle it through study in the bible. My father was a pastor who said, "I don't ever want you to believe me. I want you to go to the bible and make sure that what I am telling you is there." So when you question a thought by an author, go the verses they quote, read the context in which the verse is used,(5-10 verses ahead and past the verse) to make sure it is being used in context rather than like a snippit you see on the news that uses only a part of a quote to make a completely different point than the one that the speaker was truly making. Dig through their points to see if it is really in the bible. Luckily for you, many of the people that respond to you can give you scriptural references that can help you determine whther to believe the opinion given or not. There is more written about religion that you will not agree with, than there is that you will agree with. Just because someone printed it, doesn't mean that it is worthy. Being in the church for 38 years has definately taught me to be skeptical of everything until proven through the word.

Stan said...

Samantha, I'd like to point out that the quote (which I have no need of defending ... I'm just saying ...) does not say that Abraham was a pagan. It says he was "living in paganism". Lot and his family in Sodom and Gomorrah were living in paganism, but since God was willing to save them from the destruction of the cities, it would appear that they weren't pagans. In the same way, the world around Abraham at the time (Ur of the Chaldeans) was a pagan society. He lived some time in Canaan as well. You know Canaan, the land that God decided to annihilate because of their idolatry. (And I hope you get better soon.)

Julianne, FYI, the idea behind the first quote is in reference to complaints about the doctrine of Predestination. The idea is this: "If God predestines some to salvation, then those who are not predestined to salvation are not going to be saved. That," opponents of the doctrine say, "makes God out to be cruel." Further, many assume that if God intervenes in the lives of the Elect to bring them to salvation, then Calvinists must believe that He equally intervenes in the life of the non-Elect, forcing them to die in sin. Those two thoughts are where the "cruel God" and "without interference" comments come from.

Samantha said...

Thank you Stan for your comments. I can always count on you to make sense of my confusion :D

I am feeling much better today too!