Oct 9, 2006

Just to clarify

I just wanted to clarify my last post:

We are "being saved." When we come to know Christ and are "saved" it's not as if we are completely sanctified at that moment. It's a constant growing in grace, a growing in holiness. We are not perfect, but we are being made perfect.

SO...when I say that "Total Depravity, The Trinity, and Justification by faith alone" are essential for "salvation" I mean that they will come to be known as truth. The work of the Holy Spirit is not going to lead us to believe false doctrines, is He? So as we grow in grace, we should, when examining ourselves, come to understand and believe these doctrines.


Also, this is an awesome interview with Paul Washer and Kirk Cameron. Let me know what you think. Oh, and if you'd like to download any of his sermons, click here.

Kirk and Todd interviews Paul Washer


Julianne said...

Samantha said:
"The work of the Holy Spirit is not going to lead us to believe false doctrines, is He?"

Julianne said:
Of course not dear sister! The problem is, that we are still human and still come up with some of our own doctrines. Look at Peter deciding not to eat with gentiles...did the Holy Spirit lead him to that belief? Peter was growing in the Lord, but he also still had some "wrong" beliefs that flared up, because he was human.

Just because we are a "true" Christian does not mean we will not ever make mistakes about doctrines, even during our seasons of growth in Him.

Did the Holy Spirit lead us to believe the things which we currently believe that are not correct? Of course not. We still have our own minds, thus the reasons we still sin as well.

Just because you are "being saved" and believe certain things does not make them Holy Spirit led doctrines. They very well may be that, but they could also be from our own understanding. Thus the reason to keep seeking the face of God, because none of us has arrived yet, except our brethren who are now face to face with Jesus!

Blessings to you sis, Julianne

Samantha said...

Let me re-clarify my clarification ;)

First, I do not believe that I am right about all the doctrines I believe. I would never claim that I am perfect or that I've been completely sanctified. That is why I said that we are "growing in grace" not that we are ever perfect!!

Secondly, if I came up to you and said, "I believe I am a good person and that my good works can save me"
Would you rebuke me and wonder if I'm really walking in the light?

If I denied the Trinity, would I believe in the Jesus of the bible or my own made up God?

Jesus did say that the path to everlasting life was narrow. We know that there are going to be many people who think they are saved and find that they were wrong.

When we come to Christ, we may not completely understand, "Total Depravity" or "Justification by faith alone." I mean, I still do not completely understand the Trinity!! But I did understand that I was a sinner and that I couldn't save myself. I understood that Jesus died for my sins and that I did not deserve such grace.

I hadn't heard the terms I've mentioned, but I did understand my sinful state and my certain death had it not been for Jesus Christ.

Also, just to clarify, I am not claiming that I walk around judging people's hearts.

Julianne said...

Samantha, I truly am not concerned about you in any "bad" way sweetheart. I am attempting to point things out and clarify them, because there are so many misunderstandings.

Here is the things. If somebody told me their "good works" saved them of course I would show them Scriptures and lovingly attempt to allow the Spirit to plant seeds through my sharing. However, sometimes things people judge or perceive as "works" that somebody is claiming they did to become saved is questionable to me. Some of those things I can see a person feels are necessary, because they are Scripture too, yet are not works in their eyes. I am so glad that Jesus can see the intentions of our hearts!

The other thing is total depravity. The way you word it I can agree with at this point. The way some word it I see conflicting Scriptures and I will not just sign on to half of the Scriptures (this only being my opinion). Not sure I am making sense. So I personally have come to really dislike the title of the fact we were sinners that could not save ourselves. Everybody on both camps believes that from what I understand. When you start getting too extreme on either side I see conflicting Scriptures then. They don't truly conflict, but I think neither extreme is right on the subject.

Also, I do want to share something with you. When you first truly get on fire for Jesus, it is not uncommon to become a bit judgmental to those not walking like you. It seems to mellow in most people I know as they continue seeking the face of God and they see their own understandings of Scripture change and see themselves fail from time to time in walking the walk.

May the Lord lead us all to only judge with His righteous judgment. May He give us His love and wisdom.

I love you dearly little sis, you truly are precious and your passion sends off sparks to all who love you to rekindle our fires brighter too! I love being around those who still have that first love passion so intense that is glows! Even in your writing.

Sending you a hug!

Anonymous said...

I realize I'm late to this discussion. But you all know me, I don't care! Of course, we all have our opinions - and I have mine too...

I believe a lot of what everyone says here and in the comments of Samantha's last post is true. Here's the deal: We know there are Christians who are "mature" in the faith, and those that are not. I believe that our gracious God would not penalize someone who is new to the faith and doesn't yet (or may never) understand things such as the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's nature, or the Trinity, etc. My view is, the danger approaches as we know more and stop depending on our faith in Him and what He knows - which is what saved us in the first place! Are there "essentials"? Sure. But I think it's less a case of needing to know those essentials, and more a case of not rejecting them. In other words, I don't think you have to comprehend the Trinity to be saved, but I might question the salvation of someone who outright rejects it (theoretically, anyway).

I lean to the Calvinist view, Julianne to the Arminian - others fall somewhere in between. I think we're all brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who place their faith in God are not divided over essentials - just my view.

Abraham was saved by faith, so were those who were healed by Christ, and so all have and all will be through the end times. I suggest we don't legalize salvation with essential words, wonders, water, and works - and that instead we rely on that faith to the end while bringing others to Christ.

Blessings to all,

Anonymous said...

Oh, yeah - I almost forgot!

If all else fails, we can always fall back on this...




Julianne said...

Umm...you know I am going to have to find time to study the Arminian view to see if I do indeed lean that way. However, it seems the last time I read both views I found them both to be extreme and neither seemed to balance with ALL Scriptures. I find most answers to be either in the midst or somewhere OUTSIDE and ABOVE our ideas. However, it has been quite some time since I read both views, sooooo....I shall consider this.

NOTE: I have to say that I have grown just from reading all of your insights over time. For instance...I have always been told when God says ALL, he means ALL. Yet when Stan pointed out one time that it does not necessarily mean ALL the way we mean it, that seemed wrong to me, but I prayed about it and I do consider it. Over time, I found some other Scriptures that used ALL that absolutely do not mean ALL and I understood the rule about ALL always meaning ALL is not necessarily TRUE. I am open to being incorrect and changing my views. It now makes me reconsider my deep beliefs about Scriptures that say "all." God is awesome to keep humbling and teaching us so that we can continue to grow up into Him.

Love to y'all, Julianne

Anonymous said...

Hey Julianne-

My point wasn't to paint you as leaning to the Arminian view (although I admit I thought that you did lean that way!) - so my apologies if you took offense.

What I was trying to get across is that we are all in communion with one another (at last in my view), despite what I consider to be "non-essential" theological differences.

Night "y'all" :)

Samantha said...

Scott said, "But I think it's less a case of needing to know those essentials, and more a case of not rejecting them. In other words, I don't think you have to comprehend the Trinity to be saved, but I might question the salvation of someone who outright rejects it (theoretically, anyway)."

Agreed Bro. That's actually what I was trying to say in that long post! :D

Anonymous said...

I'm new here, but I've found your discussion interesting enough that I want to comment.

While I don't think it's important that believers comprehend the full scope of the Trinity right away, it is definitely essential that they believe that Christ is the Son of God who died and rose again for their sins and salvation. And I would certainly question the authenticity of someone's salvation if, say, six months down the road of discipleship he still doesn't believe that Christ is God.

This doctrine is essential to salvation, and belief in it is the evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit in one's life. 1 John is very clear that we can't run around denying the deity of Christ and be a genuine Christian.